On this episode of the Almost There podcast, Hōkūleʻa captain and navigator Lehua Kamalu speaks with host Dwayne Betts about the valuable leadership lessons she has learned from captaining her team across thousands of miles of ocean; what she has realized about the beauty of the natural world; and how we should think about humanity’s place on this planet. Plus, she helps coach Dwayne through his fear of the ocean.

Listen to the episode above and check out more conversations from the Almost There podcast. Almost There is produced by the Emerson Collective, an organization that brings together entrepreneurs and academics, artists, community leaders and more to build solutions that spur measurable, lasting change.